INTERVIEW: Order to Remove Yarmulke Not a Princely Decision

By Reuvain Borchardt

Rabbi Abraham Cooper, Chair of the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom (USCIRF), spoke with Hamodia shortly after arriving back in Los Angeles from a USCIRF visit to Saudi Arabia — which was cut short after a high-profile incident in which he refused a demand to remove his yarmulke. 

Rabbi Cooper is Associate Dean and Director of Global Social Action for the Simon Wiesenthal Center, a global Jewish human rights organization headquartered in Los Angeles, which fights antisemitism and promotes tolerance. 

What does USCIRF do?

The United States Commission on International Religious Freedom is funded by Congress. Its job is to look at human rights through the lens of religious freedom — for example, whether religious minorities are persecuted for religious practices. 

Right now, USCIRF looks at 28 countries, including Russia, China, North Korea, Iran, Cuba, Nigeria, and Saudi Arabia. The reason many of the countries cooperate with USCIRF is that, every year, we put out an official report on each of the countries, and there’s a grading system that the State Department uses. If a country gets the lowest grade, that opens the door for possible sanctions against it. So, while these countries prefer that there wouldn’t be a USCIRF, they can’t make believe it’s not around because we do give the report to the Secretary of State, the President, and every member of Congress. 

We are mandated by law to operate in a bipartisan fashion. We have nine commissioners: Three are appointed by the president, and the rest by the Senate majority and minority leaders, and the House speaker and minority leader. 

We are appointed to a two-year term with the possibility of an additional two years. I was appointed by then-Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell. Last year, my first year, I was made the Vice Chair, and this year, I was appointed Chair. 

One of the most important places for the commission to visit is Saudi Arabia. 

Saudi Arabia will only permit a visit by the top two people on the Commission — the Chair and Vice Chair — because they want to feel like they’re being respected. So Vice Chair Rev. Frederick Davie and I were the only two commissioners on this visit. But we also were accompanied by our executive director and two of the 20 young scholars on our staff, who are there to take notes and to advise us before or after meetings about what’s going on. So it was a total of five people. 

Tell us about the trip. 

Our trip was coordinated with the U.S. Embassy in Saudi Arabia, and with the encouragement of the Saudi Embassy in Washington. We had very substantial high-level meetings in play. 

On the first full night we were there, we were taken to a UNESCO (United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization) heritage site that Saudi Arabia constructed in the desert, called Diriyah. It’s a very popular site. We had a presentation by a brilliant young lady. 

And then we were supposed to go up with golf carts to see some of the historic ruins. 

All this time, you were wearing a yarmulke and no one had a problem with that? 

Yes. And we’d had a two-hour meeting with the Saudi Human Rights Commission. 

Until that time, I think the only person who ever turned around was probably a New Yorker wearing a baseball cap who said, “Is that guy wearing a yarmulke?” 

A lot of people cover their heads in that part of the world. And young people are like young people everywhere, on their iPhones, doing their own thing and not paying much attention to anybody else. 

So we’re about to go in the golf carts to see these ruins in Diriyah, and then someone hands me a phone. And the person on the other end of the line says, “Listen, we have laws in Saudi Arabia: We don’t allow the public display of any symbols of other religions. So I have to ask you to please remove your kippah.” 

We were already halfway through this tour. We were then supposed to have a dinner in that area as well.

My response to him was two things: Firstly, I said that what you just asked for would be like someone asking a woman from Saudi Arabia, or for that matter anywhere else, to remove her hijab. That’s actually an issue we’re involved with; it’s one of the litmus tests for religious freedom all over the world, especially for Muslims. And secondly, I told them, 50 years ago, I spent four weeks in the Soviet Union. I didn’t take off my kippah then, and I’m not taking it off now. I said, perhaps you’d like to double-check whether you really want to ask me to take off my kippah? So he said, “Let me call you back.” Ten minutes later, he called back and said, “Yes. And you really have to leave now. And if you don’t, you’ll be escorted out.” I said, “That’s fine. I appreciate it. We’re leaving. But I also want you to know, I’m leaving Saudi Arabia.” And that’s essentially what happened. There were a couple of phone calls to Washington. We were in our van going back to the hotel. I did have a call from the Saudi Arabian ambassador to the U.S.; it was a very positive call. And I will meet her Tuesday in Washington. 

And, as I stated publicly even before I left Saudi Arabia, I absolutely would like to come back soon in order to finish the meetings. 

Who was the person who spoke to you on the phone and ordered you to remove your yarmulke?

I believe it was someone from the Foreign Ministry. 

The way I see it, this was not something that was ordered by MBS (Mohammed bin Salman, the ruler of Saudi Arabia). MBS is really a kind of revolutionary. Women are now front and center in many of the meetings. The chair of their Human Rights Commission is a brilliant woman. Also, it used to be that women couldn’t drive. Massive change is happening now, for a population that is, I believe, at least a third 30 years old or younger. So they’re at a historic sort of tipping point. 

But it’s going to take quite a while to be fully implemented. 

And there are people there who were raised with a Wahabbist worldview, which, unfortunately, is also antisemitic. For those folks, it’s not like flipping a switch; you can’t think one way for 40 years and then change the next day. So my guess is whoever ordered this phone call is someone who is upset about the direction of the kingdom. I could turn out to be wrong, but I’m pretty sure that’s what transpired. 

Of course, everyone in the region is talking about and concerned about what’s going on in Gaza. Many of them get their information from Al Jazeera,an antisemitic outlet that has massive reach. And its Ramadan now, which means that millions of families are gathering around the evening news when they’re breaking their fast. So it’s not a great situation. But I don’t think they decided, “Make the Rabbi take off the yarmulke because of what’s going on in Gaza.” I don’t see that as being related. 

And one of the reasons I want to return is I want to also signal to MBS that a lot of Americans and a lot of American Jews and others want to support those kinds of societal changes, which we all hope for and will hopefully work toward, and that will bring down negative stereotypes of Jews. And maybe that’ll happen someday not so far off. In Dubai, you can get off a plane and walk the streets with a yarmulke and no one pays any attention to you. 

The Simon Wiesenthal Center is a top tier NGO (non-governmental organization) at UNESCO. So if we wanted to we could make a whole big deal over this incident. But I really feel a sense of achrayut. I have no interest in protests. I’m interested in the meetings. I’m interested in the human dimension, in putting a human face on us to the people we meet in Saudi Arabia, because they don’t see too many Jews. And having those interactions, hopefully, will speed up the kind of change we’ve seen in Bahrain, the United Arab Emirates, et al. 

The Saudi embassy in Washington released a statement that said: “Regarding a recent incident in which a member of a delegation visiting the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia — Rabbi Abraham Cooper — was denied entry to Diriyah Gate, we would like to convey the following clarification: This unfortunate incident was the result of a misunderstanding of internal protocols. 
“The matter was escalated to senior officials, and HRH the Ambassador had the opportunity to speak with the Rabbi. 
“The matter was resolved but we respect his decision to not continue the tour. 
“We look forward to welcoming him back to the Kingdom.” 
So it seems they wish this hadn’t happened, but it’s not quite an apology. 

A lot of people are bringing up apologies. 

Some governments are great at giving you verbal apologies and doing zero. In other cultures, like Japan, to have to apologize to anyone is nigh impossible for some folks to do. For me, I understood immediately that, even though this demand to remove my yarmulke came from an official, it didn’t come from the one person who counts: MBS. Whoever it was will be dealt with; that’s not up to me. But taking into account where we’re at and the fact that Saudi Arabia really is at a crossroads and so many things are changing all at once, I could be personally mochel that there’s not an official apology — but more important than the word “apology” is that they said, “We look forward to welcoming him back.” 

Overall, what is the state of religious freedom in Saudi Arabia right now? 

Muslims who are not part of the Sunni religious majority often have problems. Christians — and there are many who come to work there — still to this day do not have a public space for a church. They do things privately. There are Jews who come; I met a few of the American Jewish businesspeople who were staying in the same hotel, and they’re Americans. But there’s no real Jewish presence as such. 

Do the Jewish businesspeople wear yarmulkes? 

No, not in public. 

On the other hand, last month I spent two Shabbatot in Abu Dhabi in the United Arab Emirates. I was there on business for the Wiesenthal Center; I was a judge in a humanitarian contest for a prize. I was still saying Kaddish for my mom; it was toward the end of the 11th month. And both times I stayed at the hotel closest to the Abrahamic Family House, which has a church, a mosque, and a shul. And I was very lucky because on both Shabbatotthere was a minyan, and I was able to say Kaddish. 

Since the Abraham Accords were signed between Israel and various Muslim countries, the big question has always been, “Will Saudi Arabia be next to join?” What do you think of the prospects of a country that you had to leave because you refused to remove your yarmulke, normalizing ties with the “Jewish State”? 

If you’d have asked this question 10 years ago, people would have said it’s impossible for Israel to make peace with anybody in the Gulf; they’re all theologically based and think we have horns. Well, look what’s going on today in the Gulf, though yes, right now it’s a bit battered because of what’s going on with Hamas. 

But the answer is, it’s not so much about Diaspora Jews, but about what Israel brings to the table for the region — more money to be made; more technology; more technological cooperation; more defense against Iran, which is an existential threat to everyone there. This is all about what’s good for each of these places, including Saudi Arabia. 

You know, the Wiesenthal Center has a Museum of Tolerance in L.A.; we’ve had 7 million people come through, 95% of them not Jewish. One of the most important ways to break the negativity and all the rest is if you meet someone face to face and you enter into dialogue with them. The way to help plow the path toward peace is breaking down the stereotypes. And that can be done by businesspeople. It should be led by faith leaders. We can help on softening attitudes. But without the fundamental that a strong Israel is good for Saudi Arabia’s goals, they wouldn’t even let us into the country. So ultimately, what will sustain this is the fact that a guy who’s not even 40 years old yet, MBS, looks at Israel, and he understands its military might — that’s the main item of interest to them. 

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rborchardt@hamodia.com

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This interview originally appeared in Hamodia Prime magazine.